points at AA on 75th anniversary of the Big Book. Anti AA site points at AA on 75th anniversary of the Big Book.

This is an out of date post as the Orange Papers site does not seem to exist anty more. It therefore contains some dead links. I will leave it here as it does illustrate the stupidity going on in the Anti AA world.

It’s a real shame to see people I used to hang out with on-line bashing each other and arguing on the Orange Papers site. I used to use the forum, but left it, as had no wish to be involved with the childish behaviour, that had taken place there in the past. There were also privacy issues which appalled me. The site seems to attract some of the most extreme members of the recovery community, who are not there to help or support other people but simply bash recovery methods that they have a personal grudge against. I am all for people being critical of approaches that did not help them, but we should respect other people who do find a particular method has helped. The is simply a place for people to sling mud at each-other. Here is recent unsavoury thread It was  also rather ironic to see the forum pointing at an AA/Alcoholics Anonymous site on the week of the 75th Anniversary of the publication of the “Big Book”which is the AA Bible although the poor old site owner seems to have no worked out how to stop his one sided “anti AA troll site ” pointing at the 12 step group he so obviously hates . Terry who runs the site has to spend more of his time clearing up the mess made by his regular contributors after other site owners also criticised the poor, childish behavior of forum members. The Orange papers lot now added to an old post which a simple attempt as diversion and an attempt at discrediting I cannot think of another on line community that has anything to do with recovery that behaves anyway like these people. I can see why the site owner generally ignores the members of this forum and their stupid complaining emails.   The Orange Papers     Recovery based forums are always going to have some strange characters in the same way that every AA meeting has a few lunatics. It is best to simply ignore them and get on with life in a civil manner. I guess this is what Orange does, with some of his site members, and he seems pretty chilled out about it.   When I am on forums, I often ignore a lot of the people posting as they are predictable and boring, but others can get drawn in and take things seriously. People often interact with people on the web who they would avoid in real life.   A lot of people can have a hard time in recovery and have often been given advice that conflicts with their core beliefs or that actually makes them feel worse. Many are sent to inappropriate groups and I understand that is what happened to Orange and why he started his site after his experience in AA. You can hear him talk on Monica’s blog talk radio site that for some reason is often criticised by Orange Old Timers who appear to believe criticism of AA should be done in a way that suits them – ironically mirroring the AA movement they despise.   I found the main Orange-Papers site useful and amusing at times when I was questioning AA, and it gives a good account of the history and origins of the 12 steps. I tend not to link to it because of the forum, which many acknowledge as having problems with privacy and bullying. Some people can just brush that type of thing off and will argue back but others realise that it is unwise to be public, in involvement in a site that talks about addiction. Some members of the Orange papers forum are happy to exist on benefits and can be public about their addictions, while others are trying hard to rebuild their careers after overcoming their problems, but still want a site to meet up with some like-minded AA critical people. The tit for tat naming and shaming is stupid and can put some people at risk in their recovery or private life.   It is quite shocking when it is carried out by middle-aged people, who clearly have little respect for anyone who does not agree with them. It smacks of the type of behaviour that goes on in closed-minded AA groups, and indeed the Orange Forum does look like an AA meeting from the outside, where there are a few old timers saying the same old things with nobody taking any notice and a bunch of impressionable newcomers that lap up the tripe. Most other people get bored and move on. I feel some have actually transferred their substance addiction to some kind of blogging addiction, and that does not surprise me. Addictions are often transferred and this is sadly not a healthy thing. The net is a not a good substitution for forming real meaningful relationships and friendships face to face. People become unpredictable behind a keyboard.   I don’t normally even look at the forum, I probably visited it 6 times in 2 years, but was sent several emails, as I was being criticised on there along with other people with recovery based blogs. It does not create a good impression of people who have left AA and I can see why the Stinkin-Thinkin people are reluctant to push their site again.   I feel Ilse and Marks’ comments were reasonable and although they had there share of problems in the past, I think they have made a great contribution to discussing recovery treatment and that it was a shame that a minority, got carried away on their site as well. I remember Mike Blamedenial writing to me saying watch out for the anti AA people when I had my forum and he was right. If you are going to attempt to run a forum properly and moderate it, you will have to spend a lot of time doing it, unless you choose to simply ignore the arguing, stupid membership demands, finger-pointing, name calling, rudeness, childish behaviour and trolling like Orange does.   As I don’t really have any interest in the Orange Papers forum it should not bother me, but I do get annoyed when the same old cranks take their arguments onto other sites such as the fix and clog up every thread with their stupid, repetitive comments. Luckily I can just skim over them these days, but a lot of more moderate people, are not impressed when they do this. Old pathetic arguments are simply moved around onto different sites without any respect for other users. I think that the fact that these people are used to an environment where conflict is the norm, influences their poor behaviour elsewhere. People adapt to their environment and the forum is hostile.   There are a lot of good things happening this year in the recovery world. Stanton and Ilse wrote the excellent “recover” book which would probably help many on the Orange papers site if they practised this program, and a few days ago Lance Dodes released the excellent “Sober Truth” book. This created a lot of discussion on sites that are not usually recovery based and actually resulted in a lot of traffic going to sites such as my own little blog. It is rather ironic that a long-term member of the Orange Papers forum would decide to redirect the site to AA at this time, a couple of days before the 75th anniversary of the “Big Book” which the site has criticised over and over again. This is typical of some of the self-centred irrational rubbish that makes up most of the content on the forum. At a time when many people will be searching for information mentioned in press articles which are actually relevant to the site, it is redirected to AA!   It is not surprising that many of the arguments start over a certain troll who was allowed to name members (including myself) and generally derail the whole site. A few members were unable to summon the self-control to manage to ignore the troll and were actually the ones that used to go on pro AA sites and troll themselves. They can give out insults, but not take them. They are toxic to anyone who does not have the same values as them and will gossip about them for hours in their little Skype clique, where the most deranged members meet to endlessly discuss the Orange Papers forum, which is a huge part of their life. If you go and troll other sites, you will probably find some equally stupid people who will come and troll the one you like. The worst trolling is when they pick on a one person run little WordPress site and actually scare the owner. I find this type of behaviour unacceptable. It is simply bullying, people have a right to have blog without a group of idiots egging each other on and filling up the comments section with threats.   The selfish derailing of threads and personal bickering, bad language etc has actually lowered the profile of the entire site in Google rankings. It has resulted in the main site being blocked in places such as some hospitals and educational areas where people may have found Orange’s site useful. Freedom of speech on the Orange forum results in mainstream censorship elsewhere. Posting pages of tripe is doing nothing for the cause of exposing faults in AA which is presumably why Orange started the papers in the first place. On top of that, members are derailing threads and causing problems on other sites with their spiteful posts, which actually devalues the AA critical voice in an already pro AA dominated area.   It is hard to be taken seriously when you take on an establishment such as AA, which has become part of American culture, but the poor behaviour which is often seen on discussion boards actually strengthens the hand of the 12 step movement. You do not see the pathetic rants like the recent ones here on AA forums because trouble makers are booted off to allow people to support each other. I don’t agree that the AA method works, but the forums are well run, and well supported. People treat each other in a civil manner and they are actually a fair representation of what AA is about. It is not something that appeals to me, but some actually do like it.   I do not feel the views of those who dominate the Orange Papers forum are really in line with the majority of people that walk away from the 12 step world. They realise AA is not for them and move onto something different in a dignified manner, and continue to help others.   There is too much paranoia on the Orange forum and there are not enough people to make it a thriving on-line community, with a variety of views being discussed. I think you need at least 200 active members to make a forum work in a balanced manner and diffuse the influence of nut-cases on any on-line subject. There are probably less than 20 people posting there regularly which is an indication that it is a failure as it has run for 3 years. I am sad that the Stinkin Thinkin people are not going to start up again as they used to drive the threads with their enthusiastic posts, when they took an active part in leading their site and gave it focus. It would be hard to build an on-line community at the moment with all the bad feeling about. One of the big mistakes I made with my forum was to build it on the back of an already troubled and divided community. The problems simply move to a different place if you do that.   It is a shame that Stinkin Thinkin will not return as it would be a good time to do it. The Lace Dodes book has sparked a lot of interest and Massive will finish her film at some time this year. There are also other developments in the pipeline that will hopefully make a difference. I would point out to the site owners that the technology of WordPress has advanced along with hosting technology and it is fairly easy to keep unruly members out these days. Stinkin Thinkin had a completely different feel to the Orange Forum, and it was easy to make friends there. However on-line communities are very hard to keep fresh, especially on a subject such as criticism of AA which has been done to death. It may be hard to recapture the enthusiasm of the early days when an AA critical blog was a new concept. I realised that when I thought about starting this site and opted for a slow paced blog that is generally not confrontational. I do not want a load of troll baiter’s and cranks attacking one another or anyone else here.   If you join the Orange Papers Forum you run the risk of having your privacy exposed and are engaging with people who view arguing as a game. It mirrors a dysfunctional AA type cult group with its few delusional old timers and bunch of impressionable newcomers. If you do not follow the party line you will be attacked both on-line and behind your back on Skype. You will probably get more out of the site if you simply avoid the forum and read Orange’s pages and pages of work, about the formation of AA, its low success rate and the cult side. This part of the site would certainly make someone who is worried about AA think about other solutions, while the forum is often used as an example of dry drunks by those in 12 step fellowships and that often just about sums it up. If anybody writes a sensible post they are lucky to get a couple of page views, but an irrelevant argument with an off the wall Christian Preacher will produce pages of insults and ranting, followed by a few playground type threats to leave the forum.   Orange must have spent months writing and researching the content of his main site which has been established for many years, but this has been devalued by a few idiots with nothing much to say other that a spiteful little comment or a pathetic attempt at humour. They contribute virtually nothing worthwhile and are the reason the site is ignored by anyone rational. I suppose the Orange Papers forum gives them a place to go, away from everyone else, most of the time – a bit like the way AA provides a plastic seat for anyone who will listen.   This post was top of a Google search about the Orange papers site for a while. Not surprising it was about leaving it!   Here is one where various people get named and I am referred to as “unstable” by somebody because I shut down the site I had worked so hard on and paid for. It was not a decision I took lightly, but I do not wish to be responsible for a site where vulnerable people have their details blabbed to lunatic troll AA members including one who was dangerous, by an off site Skype group and god knows what else was going on! If I cannot trust people who were around me and supposed to be helping with the site, then there is no reasonable other option. I can see why Orange does not allow anyone from the forum to act as moderator. It would not work, there is nobody suitable there, as there are so many little cliques that a moderator would not be able to control without countless petty arguments breaking out. At least some of the people who caused me problems had the decency to apologise but others were too ignorant. Orange has certainly got his hands full with his cage of monkeys and I wish him well, although I expect he will wasting his time, still be dealing with lunacy for some time to come unless he turns it into an archive which has been a successful option for the Stinkin Thinkers!   I will be critical of AA from time to time on this site, but am more interested in talking about alternative recovery methods now. I am reading a lot about the subject and exploring new ideas. I don’t think the anti AA movement have achieved much, so far, to be honest, although it is good to see stories about 13 stepping and other criminal behaviour being brought up on some of these sites, as those are things that can really affect vulnerable people, who are not expecting it when they join a recovery movement. I don’t think a single AA meeting has shut down as a result of the thousands of posts on the Orange Papers, but offering something better, and a more modern alternative is something that will have a real impact. Some sites are really using the internet in a positive way to explore ideas. That is a really good thing.   The Orange Papers site stands out as a reminder to how the original version of the internet in 1995 was so good, when forward thinking people were exchanging ideas on hand coded html sites written on notepad. That was an exciting time and it changed the world and helped people learn about new ideas. I actually hope Orange keeps it as it is and never modernizes, it as it has a charm of its own.   However, I won’t be using the forum again while it is unmoderated (until the next time I get an inbox full about me being attacked on it!) as I value my privacy, and I never feel great after I have visited it – a bit like AA! I have just found there is even this lunatic site about the lunatics on the forum – unreal!!! If you post anything there it gets logged daily! Points are given!  This is kind of spooky actually and probably does not happen to many sites! Good Luck Orange! Here is post about the trolling that goes on that site and others where they take their arguing 


Commenting area

  1. The same backstabbing track posted on the Orange Papers forum by conan was removed by admin here.
    I was not a fan of Gunthar 12 1/2’s taste in music

    • I’m not going to play stupid games with you or your pals from the orange-papers forum. Add this site to this list of Stinkin Thinkin, exposeaa , orange papers, nadaytona, Leaving AA etc etc who’s time you have wasted with your childish activities.

      If people had used the orange papers forum to discuss some of the issues that Orange brought up on his main site, then it could have been a useful resource. Instead it was used as full on public argument about personal issues and other trivial matters. Like an AA meeting there are a few decent things said but then you have wade through piles of self righteous, argumentative rubbish, that devalues anything that is useful.

      I have no interest in that forum until it was you that decided to bring up the past over there, and I received several emails about it from people, that generally do not comment there any more because they have moved on. I actually assumed the site had been hacked at first and that somebody had hacked your account there when I saw the post on LeavingAA. I did not actually think it was you being petulant. Other than the above, there is one post here in which I point out that I am not a fan of the Orange-papers site because of all the crazy behaviour. It was an early post on my blog as I wanted to point out I have moved on from the old style of site because I can see that type of anti site is not working in a healthy way. Hate filled ranting is not the best way to recover from a substance abuse problem. AA has its faults and books such as the new one by Lance Dodes called the “Sober Truth” exposes the problems in a rational way which will help break down the public perception that the 12 step world is a wonderful solution for everyone. The Orange Papers forum does nothing of the kind. If you take a step back and read some of the threads as a neutral would it creates an impression of a female AA member is being attacked by a bunch of crazy lunatics. Many people simply ignored the likes of Clara, who is simply somebody who gets a kick out of winding people up and still does. Others cannot seem to see that, and the arguing became extreme as a result. The same thing probably happened with the preacher man although I can proudly say I did not waste a millisecond of my time reading any of that!
      It would be great to build a great online community that really helps people who have left AA after a struggle and who wish to share experiences on issues that may help others. I actually get a fair number of emails here about moving on from AA and I can see how people are being affected. It is an important issue that needs proper discussion, but that will never happen while there a small but significant number of people trying to dominate any recovery site who are engaged in trolling activities. It creates a back lash and most people have had enough.
      I started this blog up because I did not feel comfortable on sites such as the Orange-papers forum and I don’t simply wish to endlessly bash AA. I have realise from running a few unrelated websites for people that it is possible to actually get a small site to make an impression if you target the subject well. This site is not about building a community and is not a muckraking site. It is simply there to point people to some well written articles and books etc on things that are happening in the recovery world. You can do that if you are prepared to site down and write some original material that is relevant to the subject. That is the approach that worked for Orange in the first place and established his site. It is working here as well so far as I actually get far more people on this site than the old forum ever had. It works because the content is not bogged down by loads of irrelevant comments and each post has a bit of time to get indexed properly and properly ranked fro relevance in search engines. People who come here may want to find a link to a specific book or approach. They probably will not follow the blog and read every post and that is fine by me.

      The reason I do not link to Oranges site, is because I am aware that people who are quite new to recovery find this site and I do not wish to see them dragged into an environment, where they will probably end up being bullied at some point by some self righteous idiot. That will not help their recovery. Judging by the stats of this site hardly anybody is interested in bashing AA, in fact many who have rejected AA find it a major turn off. People look for solutions in recovery not arguments. They just want to ignore AA and let those who wish to be members get on with it. That is probably the best position to have if you want to have a successful stress free recovery. It is important to say why we moved on from AA and then what we found that worked for us so others who may feel the same way can learn from positive experiences.

      If somebody wishes to make peace with someone they have argued with in the past then that may help them feel better and move on. That is a rational thing to do for them and should not be attacked. Wars generally end with little being achieved other than a lot of casualties. Rational discussion often achieves a lot more, does not create a load of bad feeling and waste people’s time. I am sure Orange would rather be looking after his friend with cancer than continually sorting out redirects and childish music tracks posted by people he has already tried to ban for disrupting his forum but who seem to feel entitled to do it over and over again. I don’t agree with the way he allowed people to come and cut and paste posts from my old forum to humiliate vulnerable people under the rather flimsy excuse of free speech but perhaps he was influenced by the disgusting breaches of privacy by some of the anti members. As I have pointed out, my forum would not have worked as there was too much bad feeling in the air at that time, many members had simply stopped bothering to post anything worthwhile and had moved to an off site Skype group to taunt the likes of Clara on the Orange Papers forum.A forum with a small active membership will not grow. The stinkin thinkin people can see that as well. It is often one small group that brings shame and controversy to a whole movement. I’m not interested in flicking sand or calling people names, I’m not a teenager! I have moved on.

      Other people in the Orange papers community seem to agree

  2. Good Grief Gunther, why not focus your energy on positive things you are good at?

  3. This article is self-righteously trite – a long-winded, judgmental, and completely unnecessary critique of opf and members. Some of it is inaccurate and some is insulting, depending on who is reading. This isn’t the first time that you have critically focused an article on your blog about “them”. Unfortunately this does make you one of the culprits that you shamelessly go on about. Or, are you the only one that is allowed to express themselves when and how you want?

    These remarks contribute to the chaos and is precisely what you are condemning others for. I understand the impulse to comment and write about it, trust me – I do. This same incentive is similar to that which stimulates others to post about issues as well. The difference is that you think that you are somehow entitled to go on a dozen paragraph rant and repeatedly insult a mass of people. You smugly do it too, participating in exactly what you speak so grudgingly about.

    Although anyone and everyone is entitled to their opinion, the only people/persons that can give an adequate and thorough assessment of the on-goings of the opf are really only those that have continually followed it over the last few years (not by someone that doesn’t “normally even look at the forum, I probably visited it 6 times in 2 years”). Know it all, lol.

    Sadly, following the forum for that long would likely cause anger that people tend to express occasionally. When there is a bunch of different members expressing it, there becomes chaos. When that happens, the good content does get lost in the shuffle. Oddly, your angered opinion is not justified at all, being a very distant member, and offers a one-sided prejudice and presumptuous bash of some regretful occurrences. Also lies (perhaps vocalized assumption? Some people think that isn’t a lie). It really portrays lovinglife as a##hole, that’s it, lol. A big winey a##hole that doesn’t have the guts to name the people he is disgracing (or contact them personally, whatever), so he casually applies the same attributes to everyone. Bill?

    You have personally offended me (more than once) by dissing the entire forum including the “little Skype clique, where the most deranged members meet to endlessly discuss the Orange Papers forum”.

    I am one individual that regularly does Skype with some friends and have been for some time. Referring to us (me) with such contempt and fierce resentment is an extremely rude and disrespectful projection. I’ve done nothing to you personally, nor was I part of any indiscretion regarding co-administration of your website forum, RecoveryFromRecovery (the site lasted maybe six weeks, two years ago, and you decided to close it, but blamed everyone else. Time to get over it, and yourself apparently). I also don’t participate in any sort of group bullying and often use Skype to offer (sometimes receive) support. No explanation should ever be needed to you or anyone else, yet I feel compelled to point out how ‘stupid and mean’ a smart person can actually be. No one is perfect, I guess. So from a pedestal you antagonistically write, assuming to know all that occurs during personal calls between individuals, even years after having any contact. Did you ever consider that you have been wrongly instigated? Why do you assume and publicly express that the lowliest mishaps of “them” are still occurring regularly and will if you engage with them? It’s appalling.

    I agree that the “poor, childish behaviour of forum members” affects the appearance of this movement. Taking notice of it and pointing it out regularly does also (as you do on your blog). If you must go on and on about the subject, I’d like to boldly suggest that you include noting that some opf members stay involved because they have a passionate and private commitment to what is known as “the cause”. As a matter of fact, most do. They have also contributed a great deal, and enthusiastically at that. Perhaps include at least something positive instead of a never ending list of character defects of opf members:

    “deranged”…“stupid membership demands”….“big part of their life”….“hostile”…. “toxic”…. “gossip for hours”…. “idiots”… “threats” … “paranoia” … “insults given but not taken” (I do wonder what that last part means, exactly…only a saint would take an insult lightly and without a hint of resentment).

    Why smudge the entire campaign and label a bunch of folks, many innocent members of a forum? Having some valid points that are relevant can be useful and there actually is a few in your article. You ruined it with crude animosity and belligerent grandstanding, though, and it’s un-salvageable. Barely worth pointing out any agreements.

    It is obvious, as well as admitted by yourself here, that a few online regulars have ran crying and gossiping to you, giving their own biased version of a few events. Apparently this helped spark some of the untrue, presumptuous claims you make. Maybe a dozen paragraphs of selfless blame about crap years old or bullshit blame about current events isn’t enough. Just a thought.

    The beginning of another huge mishap is unfortunately occurring over there today. Repeated b.s. by a couple of individuals at the expense of Orange and all of the members. Case in point: being a jerk and blaming the whole forum or a skype “gang” is ridiculous every time someone snaps is ridiculous.

    PS. Couldn’t help but notice you are referring to people by their first name, Orange for example. Advice: Most readers won’t know who you are talking about. Might want to be more specific. I was wondering if your intent was to somehow indicate that you have a close, personal relationship with them. Especially Orange, since in one of your explosive public rants in a forum (belonging to someone else) you referred to him as an old twit that wouldn’t lift a finger to help anyone. Get that beef settled? Btw, how does one go about that with you, without someone needing to kiss your ass and your toes, etc.?

  4. I see it is al-right for anyone to write pages of rubbish and insult members of my site on the Orange papers forum but not all-right for me to put two small posts on my own site. So much for freedom of speech!

    Anyway here is spot on the Orange-papers forum that seems to agree that the whole thing was an embarrassment for the site owner You seem to represent the trolls and the bores over there.

    I think I do have right to say what I think. I was one of the original members and a regular poster at times and left along with many who were disgusted by the behaviour there. I don’t have much time for Orange to be honest as he allows personal attacks under the flimsy excuse of freedom of speech.
    I was trying to allow people to have a voice but things were not working out and after having to sort out a complete mess thanks to people that I had considered friends I close to close my forum. That was the responsible thing to do under the circumstances. If you look at the links I provided people with show a tiny amount of the craziness that the wonderful mr Orange allows.

    I can see now why he simply ignores most of the posters on his forum – he did reply to me when I sent him money a few times but I was otherwise ignored. He was not bothered that his forum was being used as a place to bash a couple of vulnerable people on mine. It appears he can only spend very ltd time running the forum from the local library and is therefore not in a position to moderate. Many members of the forum are taking advantage of this.

    I would not have even gone to his forum until Gunthar decided to have a go at my former blogging mfc name over there. There were other jibes elsewhere by the usual people so I have simply written my response. I wrote it here after there were complaints about the respected Stinkin Thinkin blog which most people were slagged off for using freedom of speech on the Orange papers, which certain members use as an excuse for their pathetic conduct.

    There are some good people on the the orange papers but there were a lot more at one time. They have left as a result of the poor forum management and the poor behaviour of the members that Orange allows to attack others. As soon as anyone criticises the orange papers you get called a winy a***hole by someone like yourself who apparently comes from the Orange-Papers forum although I have not actually heard of you. It seems to be one rule for you lot and one for me. You seem to be against the idea of freedom of speech which the “old twit who wont lift a finger to help people” who are being attacked hold so dear.

    I would not use skype for support with members of the orange papers forum, in fact I don’t use anyone, but when I did I used professional counselling, not some anti AA person. Especially after the names of people were passed onto several people who would use that information against people. That could have caused serious problems for many people as I have stated before and I feel it is completely responsible to point that out. It was actually me that started the skype thing although it would probably have happened in time. I also had a video chatroom. I realise that these things can be a big mistake now, especially when people fall out and the result of this is rather obvious now. Here is one of links showing the result of people naming each other after a friendly skype chat I really do think that interacting with people in the real world is much safer than a group skype call on an anti AA site if you are looking for support.

    I am completely over shutting down my forum. I felt a great sense of relief afterwards and realised it was a mistake. That does not mean I have to accept that what happened was right and that I should treat certain people on the orange forum with anything other than contempt. the forum did get a lot of postive feedback, from people who were counsellors etc and one had actually asked if they could send a few people to the site. this was obviously not a good idea when anything they said that was weak would be used to humiliate them on the Orange-Papers forum.

    Here is the latest abusive thread on the orange papers. I would not have bothered to write anything like this if it were not for this type of behaviour, and neither would the Stinkin Thinkin people here we are getting abuse about somebody taking medication which is normally something that orange papers forum members accuse cult type AA groups of doing. I do think rainbow’s comment is great however. Unlike many posters on the orange papers forum her comments are actually funny and don’t need a pathetic Lol at the end of each line to indicate an attempt at humour. is a good piece about the futility of the anti AA cause. I agree with a lot of it. The anti AA movement has achieved very little and that is because of all the arguing. AA members must laugh at all this! It is pathetic.

    By the way I have received some really supportive emails about the site from some really good writers and have been asked to review several books including the one by Lance Dodes and Stanton Peele by the authors and the publishers. They did not call me a winey A-hole, in fact quite the opposite. I presume they ignored the Orange Papers forum members when they were launching their books.

  5. I see there is now a small thread on exposeAA which actually seems to be quite a good site. I was an orginal member of that as well and may rejoin
    The general view there is also that the Orange papers forum is not being well run and that there are problems with abuse. Many of the people commenting seem to be regular members.

  6. Lovinglife52- yes Lfod is now running http://www.expaa,org so I decided to join not too long ago. It has a lot of good
    content and it would be great to see you join. You have good insights about addiction treatments and AA. I really like your review on Lance Dodes book The Sober Truth. Your interest in new books being published is very refreshing. These are the things that need to be spotlighted more.

    I do think though the anti AA cause has made much more strides than you give us credit for. The opf is not beginning and end of it. In fact it is really just a small part of it. There are many other blogs, radioblogs, books, articles, facebook pages, movies being made that I think are really and truly making a difference. That is why you see more people talking about the negative aspects of 12 step programs and rehabs and discussing more about better options.

    As far as the the opf goes it is odd that anything goes there for the time being, but some members try to control other peoples blogs and want to restrict their content. Maybe the expression of cleaning up your own backyard first is in order.

    I really did admire the first blog you had up. But I even had a difficult time there because of some of the same people who had come from the opf. I know you put a lot of hard work into it. I am so glad to see you start this blog up again. Even Dr. Lance Dodes was impressed! WOW! That is something to be proud of.

  7. Thank you for writing about this, Loving Life. I enjoy your new site. The only correction I would make to your assessments linking my post from the other night about it involving names being named after a Skype chat is that there was no Skype chat whatsoever. I tried to, but was greeted with words I’d rather not repeat here (though are indicated in the post you linked). I find your assessments, as well as those of Mark and Ilse to be correct. I see also that you are being attacked for the very things you write about causing the trouble in the first place.

    The main issue for me is that I have much more important things to be focusing on in my life than worrying any longer about internecine warfare on anti-12 step sites. I also wanted to express my agreement that the bashing of AA is no longer an important component for me in any way in terms of this. There are people out there who need HELP, and while I understand that many think that if AA is torn down then adequate help will finally filter to those who need it, but there is simply too much negativity and too little being accomplished. It is a far better thing, in my opinion, to start publicizing things that are helpful to people and actually work than to wallow in hatred for a group, though I do not like AA/NA particularly.

    Or, more precisely, I have advocated certain writers and researchers doing positive work (particularly Anne Fletcher, author of Inside Rehab and Dr. Marc Lewis, author of Memoirs of an Addicted Brain and the site of the same name) while not focusing on hatred of 12 step programs only to seem to have earned some level of enmity, luckily by only a few people, that I will likely never understand or have explained to me, which I only mention because you linked my post of exasperated and hurt confusion at least twice here.

    I’m glad you have recreated this site, in its new form, and thank you for the addition of another site online with thought provoking posts on these issues surrounding substance abuse treatment/attitudes and theories. We need more positive ground to walk on in this arena.

    P.S. I am merely commenting, and I realize that a few people, though using other names, are also here who are possibly angry at me (again, as linked I have no reason why and have been refused an explanation). I am not trying to draw any fight to this site, in fact am 100% opposed to any such action, so if there is someone here with a personal gripe against me, I would like to ask you to please address it with me privately and not drag this site or its owner into whatever grudge there is out there against me lately.

    P.P.S. I am quite sorry that I received Lance Dodes’ book right as I left home for surgery and an extended bout of physio and left it on the shelf there instead of bringing it! It seems an interesting read.

    • Thanks for the comments. I do think the only way to provide a good alternative to AA is to learn from the mistakes that have taken place and point out the alternatives that people may find more helpful.
      AA was certainly not for me and I feel justified in saying why and backing it up with some of my experiences. I always try and put a bit of balance in anything I write about AA rather than purely bashing it these days, as the one sided approach often puts a lot of people off and they will not investigate further.

      Some people obviously love AA and others regard it as a cult. Taking a step back from all the anti AA stuff and reading articles from different sites has got things in a different perspective for me as I was not caught up in the dynamics of an on-line group where people are egging each-other on and getting more extreme. I really can see parallels with certain crazy AA groups and its direct opposite, the small group that has grown from the orange papers site.
      I also found the Marc Lewis book and site to be really helpful. That is an amazing read. I reviewed it on my book section.

      I am interested in learning more about the genetic arguments and also exploring Harm Reduction solutions. Dr Andrew Tatarsky got in touch recently and kindly sent me some of his work and I intend reading his books soon as well as others By Dr Lance Dodes.

      I will keep adding to this blog but will slow things down as I am involved in many other projects at the moment and work is no longer as regular, but one extreme or the other. I will probably revisit some of the early posts which I simply churned out and update them as I do not want a site that is bloated and impossible to navigate.

      I do think that many in the anti AA world are viewed as an embarrassment by people who are working on alternative not 12 step solutions. There are some good sites that are highlighting potential dangers etc and 13 stepping issues which do an important job, but other sites have a very negative impact on how people who have left the 12 step world are perceived. I do not believe that great progress will be made in the recovery field until people providing different solutions work together a bit and help people find the appropriate solutions. That won’t happen in a world where people simply argue with each other.

  8. Thanks, LovingLife. I mentioned Marc Lewis partly because he also runs a blog with quite a lot of followers/commenters on the topics he writes about and studies (all addiction related, some neuro-technical in nature). It’s worth checking out, as he has managed to keep the peace over there for a few years now without it descending into any sort of pettiness or negativity. Of course, the focus there is neuroscience and solutions, not hating a self help group, so that can make a bit of a difference. Check it out if you get a chance.

  9. I have commented on his blog and we had some email contact. He is a really good writer and has done some fantastic articles in places like psychology today. This is probably a bit complicated for most people from the orange-papers forum but I’m sure you will enjoy it pie. I mentioned his book here

  10. Good, I’m glad you have found him! Great guy. He allowed me to write a guest piece back in late 2012 for his blog. I’ve really enjoyed his work as well.

  11. MikeD, please keep up the good fight. Your cause IMO is just and much needed at this time. I am happy to finally get here…lol. I look forward to learning here.

    • Thanks for letting me know about the problem via email. I have had the site set so anyone can comment with just spam filters running and it was fine until the “freedom of speech” children from the orange papers turned up and spent a large amount of Sunday trying to break into the site, presumably so they could redirect it to AA!
      It shows you can have problems moderating a web site even when your computer is connected to the internet!

  12. RC, is RickCey. Just so you all know…….:)

  13. Np Mike. I like coming here and enjoy the members.

  14. Sadly, the edit function is no longer there due to abuses in the past few months. So I am stuck with that post you linked forever and ever. Oh well.

  15. There often has to be moderation on sites as freedom of speech rarely works when some people do not abide by the normal conventions of society.

  16. Freedom of speech is a misunderstood privilege. All I am seeing is impulsivity.

  17. So I was commenting on the Fix. My comment stated, can you guys stay on subject instead of diving head first into an anti AA rant in the comments section under random non related articles. I told commenters that the orange papers was one click away. No less then an hour later I was blocked from accessing litiriture on the orange papers websight. I am not a member of that community but I use some of the information to advocate against abusive troubled teen centers. This should give you an idea of just how close minded and non constructive some of these members are. A really good example is an article on sober non boarding recovery high schools on the Fix. Dozens of these schools are supported by such individuals as Maia Szalavitz. These schools are alternatives to 12 step based programs from what I can see. They offer basic classes and evidenced based treatment while keeping kids in their homes and communities. The comment section is filled with anti AA rants that conclude these programs are run by steppers. None of these anti AA rants has a bit of posative or constructive information in them. What do you guys think? Is my comment connected to me getting blocked from their websight. Either way I try to make sure I focus on my own recovery in most instances instead of attacking things I don’t like.

  18. I really like this websight. I think you bring up some important points. I would like to be a part of this online community to discuss constructive alternatives to AA. I wish we had smart meeting in my town. For now I go to 12 step meetings and take what works and I leave the rest. Thanks for the info.

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