http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/ points at AA on 75th anniversary of the Big Book.
http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/ Anti AA site points at AA on 75th anniversary of the Big Book.
This is an out of date post as the Orange Papers site does not seem to exist anty more. It therefore contains some dead links. I will leave it here as it does illustrate the stupidity going on in the Anti AA world.
It’s a real shame to see people I used to hang out with on-line bashing each other and arguing on the Orange Papers site. I used to use the forum, but left it, as had no wish to be involved with the childish behaviour, that had taken place there in the past. There were also privacy issues which appalled me. The Orange-papers.org site seems to attract some of the most extreme members of the recovery community, who are not there to help or support other people but simply bash recovery methods that they have a personal grudge against. I am all for people being critical of approaches that did not help them, but we should respect other people who do find a particular method has helped. The Orange-Papers.org is simply a place for people to sling mud at each-other. Here is recent unsavoury thread http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/5313 It was also rather ironic to see the Orange-Papers.org forum pointing at an AA/Alcoholics Anonymous site on the week of the 75th Anniversary of the publication of the “Big Book”which is the AA Bible http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/5321 although the poor old site owner seems to have no worked out how to stop his one sided “anti AA troll site ” pointing at the 12 step group he so obviously hates . Terry who runs the site has to spend more of his time clearing up the mess made by his regular contributors after other site owners also criticised the poor, childish behavior of Orange-Papers.org forum members. The Orange papers lot now added to an old post which a simple attempt as diversion and an attempt at discrediting http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/comment/100297#comment-100297. I cannot think of another on line community that has anything to do with recovery that behaves anyway like these people. I can see why the site owner generally ignores the members of this forum and their stupid complaining emails. Recovery based forums are always going to have some strange characters in the same way that every AA meeting has a few lunatics. It is best to simply ignore them and get on with life in a civil manner. I guess this is what Orange does, with some of his site members, and he seems pretty chilled out about it. When I am on forums, I often ignore a lot of the people posting as they are predictable and boring, but others can get drawn in and take things seriously. People often interact with people on the web who they would avoid in real life. A lot of people can have a hard time in recovery and have often been given advice that conflicts with their core beliefs or that actually makes them feel worse. Many are sent to inappropriate groups and I understand that is what happened to Orange and why he started his site after his experience in AA. You can hear him talk on Monica’s blog talk radio site that for some reason is often criticised by Orange Old Timers who appear to believe criticism of AA should be done in a way that suits them – ironically mirroring the AA movement they despise. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery/2013/11/06/terry-founder-of-orange-papers-to-guest I found the main Orange-Papers site useful and amusing at times when I was questioning AA, and it gives a good account of the history and origins of the 12 steps. I tend not to link to it because of the forum, which many acknowledge as having problems with privacy and bullying. Some people can just brush that type of thing off and will argue back but others realise that it is unwise to be public, in involvement in a site that talks about addiction. Some members of the Orange papers forum are happy to exist on benefits and can be public about their addictions, while others are trying hard to rebuild their careers after overcoming their problems, but still want a site to meet up with some like-minded AA critical people. The tit for tat naming and shaming is stupid and can put some people at risk in their recovery or private life. It is quite shocking when it is carried out by middle-aged people, who clearly have little respect for anyone who does not agree with them. It smacks of the type of behaviour that goes on in closed-minded AA groups, and indeed the Orange Forum does look like an AA meeting from the outside, where there are a few old timers saying the same old things with nobody taking any notice and a bunch of impressionable newcomers that lap up the tripe. Most other people get bored and move on. I feel some have actually transferred their substance addiction to some kind of blogging addiction, and that does not surprise me. Addictions are often transferred and this is sadly not a healthy thing. The net is a not a good substitution for forming real meaningful relationships and friendships face to face. People become unpredictable behind a keyboard. I don’t normally even look at the forum, I probably visited it 6 times in 2 years, but was sent several emails, as I was being criticised on there along with other people with recovery based blogs. It does not create a good impression of people who have left AA and I can see why the Stinkin-Thinkin people are reluctant to push their site again. http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/5290 I feel Ilse and Marks’ comments were reasonable and although they had there share of problems in the past, I think they have made a great contribution to discussing recovery treatment and that it was a shame that a minority, got carried away on their site as well. I remember Mike Blamedenial writing to me saying watch out for the anti AA people when I had my forum and he was right. If you are going to attempt to run a forum properly and moderate it, you will have to spend a lot of time doing it, unless you choose to simply ignore the arguing, stupid membership demands, finger-pointing, name calling, rudeness, childish behaviour and trolling like Orange does. As I don’t really have any interest in the Orange Papers forum it should not bother me, but I do get annoyed when the same old cranks take their arguments onto other sites such as the fix and clog up every thread with their stupid, repetitive comments. Luckily I can just skim over them these days, but a lot of more moderate people, are not impressed when they do this. Old pathetic arguments are simply moved around onto different sites without any respect for other users. I think that the fact that these people are used to an environment where conflict is the norm, influences their poor behaviour elsewhere. People adapt to their environment and the forum is hostile. There are a lot of good things happening this year in the recovery world. Stanton and Ilse wrote the excellent “recover” book which would probably help many on the Orange papers site if they practised this program, and a few days ago Lance Dodes released the excellent “Sober Truth” book. This created a lot of discussion on sites that are not usually recovery based and actually resulted in a lot of traffic going to sites such as my own little blog. It is rather ironic that a long-term member of the Orange Papers forum would decide to redirect the site to AA at this time, a couple of days before the 75th anniversary of the “Big Book” which the site has criticised over and over again. This is typical of some of the self-centred irrational rubbish that makes up most of the content on the forum. At a time when many people will be searching for information mentioned in press articles which are actually relevant to the site, it is redirected to AA! http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/5321 It is not surprising that many of the arguments start over a certain troll who was allowed to name members (including myself) and generally derail the whole site. A few members were unable to summon the self-control to manage to ignore the troll and were actually the ones that used to go on pro AA sites and troll themselves. They can give out insults, but not take them. They are toxic to anyone who does not have the same values as them and will gossip about them for hours in their little Skype clique, where the most deranged members meet to endlessly discuss the Orange Papers forum, which is a huge part of their life. If you go and troll other sites, you will probably find some equally stupid people who will come and troll the one you like. The worst trolling is when they pick on a one person run little WordPress site and actually scare the owner. I find this type of behaviour unacceptable. It is simply bullying, people have a right to have blog without a group of idiots egging each other on and filling up the comments section with threats. The selfish derailing of threads and personal bickering, bad language etc has actually lowered the profile of the entire site in Google rankings. It has resulted in the main site being blocked in places such as some hospitals and educational areas where people may have found Orange’s site useful. Freedom of speech on the Orange forum results in mainstream censorship elsewhere. Posting pages of tripe is doing nothing for the cause of exposing faults in AA which is presumably why Orange started the papers in the first place. On top of that, members are derailing threads and causing problems on other sites with their spiteful posts, which actually devalues the AA critical voice in an already pro AA dominated area. It is hard to be taken seriously when you take on an establishment such as AA, which has become part of American culture, but the poor behaviour which is often seen on discussion boards actually strengthens the hand of the 12 step movement. You do not see the pathetic rants like the recent ones here on AA forums because trouble makers are booted off to allow people to support each other. I don’t agree that the AA method works, but the forums are well run, and well supported. People treat each other in a civil manner and they are actually a fair representation of what AA is about. It is not something that appeals to me, but some actually do like it. I do not feel the views of those who dominate the Orange Papers forum are really in line with the majority of people that walk away from the 12 step world. They realise AA is not for them and move onto something different in a dignified manner, and continue to help others. There is too much paranoia on the Orange forum and there are not enough people to make it a thriving on-line community, with a variety of views being discussed. I think you need at least 200 active members to make a forum work in a balanced manner and diffuse the influence of nut-cases on any on-line subject. There are probably less than 20 people posting there regularly which is an indication that it is a failure as it has run for 3 years. I am sad that the Stinkin Thinkin people are not going to start up again as they used to drive the threads with their enthusiastic posts, when they took an active part in leading their site and gave it focus. It would be hard to build an on-line community at the moment with all the bad feeling about. One of the big mistakes I made with my forum was to build it on the back of an already troubled and divided community. The problems simply move to a different place if you do that. It is a shame that Stinkin Thinkin will not return as it would be a good time to do it. The Lace Dodes book has sparked a lot of interest and Massive will finish her film at some time this year. There are also other developments in the pipeline that will hopefully make a difference. I would point out to the site owners that the technology of WordPress has advanced along with hosting technology and it is fairly easy to keep unruly members out these days. Stinkin Thinkin had a completely different feel to the Orange Forum, and it was easy to make friends there. However on-line communities are very hard to keep fresh, especially on a subject such as criticism of AA which has been done to death. It may be hard to recapture the enthusiasm of the early days when an AA critical blog was a new concept. I realised that when I thought about starting this site and opted for a slow paced blog that is generally not confrontational. I do not want a load of troll baiter’s and cranks attacking one another or anyone else here. If you join the Orange Papers Forum you run the risk of having your privacy exposed and are engaging with people who view arguing as a game. http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/2483 It mirrors a dysfunctional AA type cult group with its few delusional old timers and bunch of impressionable newcomers. If you do not follow the party line you will be attacked both on-line and behind your back on Skype. You will probably get more out of the site if you simply avoid the forum and read Orange’s pages and pages of work, about the formation of AA, its low success rate and the cult side. This part of the site would certainly make someone who is worried about AA think about other solutions, while the forum is often used as an example of dry drunks by those in 12 step fellowships and that often just about sums it up. If anybody writes a sensible post they are lucky to get a couple of page views, but an irrelevant argument with an off the wall Christian Preacher will produce pages of insults and ranting, followed by a few playground type threats to leave the forum. Orange must have spent months writing and researching the content of his main site which has been established for many years, but this has been devalued by a few idiots with nothing much to say other that a spiteful little comment or a pathetic attempt at humour. They contribute virtually nothing worthwhile and are the reason the site is ignored by anyone rational. I suppose the Orange Papers forum gives them a place to go, away from everyone else, most of the time – a bit like the way AA provides a plastic seat for anyone who will listen. This post was top of a Google search about the Orange papers site for a while. Not surprising it was about leaving it! http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/1673 Here is one where various people get named and I am referred to as “unstable” by somebody because I shut down the site I had worked so hard on and paid for. It was not a decision I took lightly, but I do not wish to be responsible for a site where vulnerable people have their details blabbed to lunatic troll AA members including one who was dangerous, by an off site Skype group and god knows what else was going on! If I cannot trust people who were around me and supposed to be helping with the site, then there is no reasonable other option. I can see why Orange does not allow anyone from the forum to act as moderator. It would not work, there is nobody suitable there, as there are so many little cliques that a moderator would not be able to control without countless petty arguments breaking out. http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/2513 At least some of the people who caused me problems had the decency to apologise but others were too ignorant. Orange has certainly got his hands full with his cage of monkeys and I wish him well, although I expect he will wasting his time, still be dealing with lunacy for some time to come unless he turns it into an archive which has been a successful option for the Stinkin Thinkers! I will be critical of AA from time to time on this site, but am more interested in talking about alternative recovery methods now. I am reading a lot about the subject and exploring new ideas. I don’t think the anti AA movement have achieved much, so far, to be honest, although it is good to see stories about 13 stepping and other criminal behaviour being brought up on some of these sites, as those are things that can really affect vulnerable people, who are not expecting it when they join a recovery movement. I don’t think a single AA meeting has shut down as a result of the thousands of posts on the Orange Papers, but offering something better, and a more modern alternative is something that will have a real impact. Some sites are really using the internet in a positive way to explore ideas. That is a really good thing. The Orange Papers site stands out as a reminder to how the original version of the internet in 1995 was so good, when forward thinking people were exchanging ideas on hand coded html sites written on notepad. That was an exciting time and it changed the world and helped people learn about new ideas. I actually hope Orange keeps it as it is and never modernizes, it as it has a charm of its own. However, I won’t be using the forum again while it is unmoderated (until the next time I get an inbox full about me being attacked on it!) as I value my privacy, and I never feel great after I have visited it – a bit like AA! I have just found there is even this lunatic site about the lunatics on the forum – unreal!!! If you post anything there it gets logged daily! Points are given! This is kind of spooky actually and probably does not happen to many sites! http://opf-circle-jerk.blogspot.co.uk/ Good Luck Orange! Here is post about the trolling that goes on that site and others where they take their arguing http://www.recoveringfromrecovery.com/internet-addiction-trolling-recovering-substance-addiction-problems/Google+